The Jerusalem Council

A Global Association of Orthodox Jewish Disciples of Messiah Yeshua

The Torah before Noah – A Refutation of Noachide Theology

The aim of this article is present a series of questions that refute the claim that the Noachide laws were the only Torah given to mankind before Mt. Sinai by listing the scriptural and Jewish references to the Torah existing before Mt. Sinai. If you know of other references, please reply to this post below.

Hosea 6:7
Like Adam, they (Israel) have broken the covenant— they were unfaithful to me there.

Question: What Covenant did Israel break that Hosea says that Adam did too?

Exodus 34:28
So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Words.

Deuteronomy 29:1
These are the words of the covenant which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the sons of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He had made with them at Horeb.

Gen 2:15 Targum Pseudo-Jonathan
And the Lord God took the man from the mountain of worship, where he had been created, and made him dwell in the garden of Eden, to do service in the Torah, and to keep its commandments.

Gen 2:15 Jerusalem Targum
And the Lord God took the man, and made him dwell in the garden of Eden; and set him to do service in the Torah, and to keep it.

Gen 3:15 Targum Pseudo-Jonathan
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between the seed of thy son, and the seed of her sons; and it shall be when the sons of the woman keep the commandments of the Torah, they will be prepared to smite thee upon thy head; but when they forsake the commandments of the Torah, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel. Nevertheless for them there shall be a medicine, but for thee there will be no medicine; and they shall make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha.

Gen 3:15 Jerusalem Targum
And it shall be when the sons of the woman consider the Torah, and perform (its) instructions, they will be prepared to smite thee on thy head to kill thee; and when the sons of the woman forsake the commandment of the Torah, and perform not (its) instructions, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel, and hurt them. Nevertheless there shall be a medicine for the sons of the woman, but for thee, serpent, there shall be no medicine: but it is to be that for these there shall be a remedy for the heel in the days of the king Meshiha.

Point: “The commandment” refers to the Shema which is considered one commandment. See the article The Torah is One Commandment

Gen 3:23 Targum Pseudo-Jonathan
Before He had created the world, He created the Torah; He prepared the garden of Eden for the righteous, that they might eat and delight themselves with the fruit of the tree; because they would have practised in their lives the doctrine of the Torah in this world, and have maintained the commandments: (but) he prepared Gehinnam for the wicked, which is like the sharp, consuming sword of two edges; in the midst of it He hath prepared flakes of fire and burning coals for the judgment of the wicked who rebelled in their life against the doctrine of the Torah. To serve the Torah is better than (to eat of) the fruit of the tree of life, (the Torah) which the Word of the Lord prepared, that man in keeping it might continue, and walk in the paths of the way of life in the world to come.

Gen 3:23 Jerusalem Targum
Two thousand years before He had created the world, He created the Torah, and prepared Gehinnam and the garden of Eden. He prepared the garden of Eden for the righteous, that they should eat, and delight themselves with the fruit of the tree, because they had kept the commandments of the Torah in this world. For the wicked He prepared Gehinnam, which is like the sharp, consuming sword with two edges. He prepared in the depth of it flakes of fire and burning coals for the wicked, for their punishment for ever in the world to come, who have not kept the commandment of the Torah in this world. For the Torah is the tree of life; whoever keepeth it in this life liveth and subsisteth as the tree of life. The Torah is good to keep in this world, as the fruit of the tree of life in the world that cometh.

Gen 4:3-4
3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground.
4 Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering;
6 Then the LORD said to Cain, “(G)Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
7 “If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

Question: By what Torah does Cain know how to “do well” in regards to offering the fruit of the ground?

Question: By what Torah is Abel’s offering of the “firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions” regarded by HaShem?

Gen 4:7 Targum Pseudo-Jonathan
And the Lord said to Kain, Why hast thou anger, and why are the features of thy face downcast? If thou doest thy work well, will not thy guilt be forgiven thee? But if thou doest not thy work well in this world, thy sin is retained unto the day of the great judgment, and at the doors of thy heart lieth thy sin. And into thy hand have I delivered the power over evil passion, and unto thee shall be the inclination thereof, that thou mayest have authority over it to become righteous, or to sin.

Question: By what Torah is Cain’s sin defined by?

Gen 4:8
Habel answered and said to Kain, In goodness was the world created, and according to the fruit of good works is it governed; and there is no respect of persons in judgment; but because the fruits of my works were better than thine, my oblation, before thine, hath been accepted with good will.

Question: What are these good works, and how are they defined according to the Torah?

Gen 4:10-11
10 He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to Me from the ground.
11 “Now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.

Question: The last time God cursed someone is when Adam and Eve sinned. Now Cain is cursed… so does God curse when there is no sin committed?

Gen 4:11 Targum Pseudo-Jonathan
The voice of the bloods of the murder of thy brother which are swallowed up in the sod, crieth before Me from the earth.

Question: The Targum calls this sin, “murder.” But where is murder defined?

Gen 4:13
And Kain said before the Lord, My sins are greater than can be borne. Nevertheless there is power before Thee to absolve and forgive me.

Question: What sins? Murder is only ONE sin. What other sin did Cain commit? Perhaps the offering? What made it a sin? According to what standard?

Gen 5:24
Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Question: How did Enoch walk with God if there was no Torah supposedly given yet?

Gen 6:5
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Question: How can man be charged with wickedness before Noah was given his commands? According to what standard did mankind engage, that is accounted as the wickedness that God saw? Where was that standard given to mankind? When?

Gen 6:9
Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

Question: How is Noah righteous before the flood? How is he called righteous before he was given the so-called Noahide laws, yet the rest of mankind is not counted as righteous? By what given standard is Noah thus set apart from the rest of that generation that perished?

Question: How is Noah blameless before the flood? By what standard? And when was that standard given?

Question: Like Enoch, how did Noah walk with God? In what way? By what standard? What did his walk of obedience look like?

Gen 6:21
“As for you, take for yourself some of all food which is edible, and gather it to yourself; and it shall be for food for you and for them.”

Question: Which food is edible, which is not? Is there a food that is NOT edible to contrast the addition of the adjective to food “that is edible?” Where is that standard defined?

Question: What is “food for you” if not defined by Leviticus which states what is “food for you”?

Gen 7:2-3
2 “You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female;
3 also of the birds of the sky, by sevens, male and female, to keep offspring alive on the face of all the earth.

Question: By what standard are clean animals defined?

Question: By what standard are unclean animals defined?

Gen 8:20
20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Question: By what Torah does Noah know how to build an altar?

Question: By what Torah does he know what are clean animals?

Question: By what Torah does he know what are clean birds?

Question: By what Torah does he limit the offering of only clean animals? Why does he not offer an unclean animals?

Question: By what Torah does he limit the offering of only clean birds? Why does he not offer an unclean bird? By what teaching or instruction?

Question: According to what teaching or instruction does he offer a BURNT offering?

Question: Why would a man who spent years dedicated to the preservation of animals from the Flood, immediately desire to kill one of each of the clean animals? For such a righteous man, according to what Torah does he take this upon himself?

Gen 8:21
21 The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

Question: If God calls the pleasing offerings of the altar sacrifices by Israel in the wilderness a “soothing aroma,” then how is it that Noah is able to offer up an offering that too is a “soothing aroma” to the LORD, without knowing the Torah’s instructions in how to do so?

According to Encyclopedia Judaica: … m%20psalms
Adam’s psalms …refer to cosmogony, creation. Psalm 5, Psalm 19, Psalm 24, Psalm 92 (Yalḳut. II. 630) were said to have been written by David, though Adam was worthy to have composed them.

Of particular interest is Psalm 19, if attributed to Adam, says:

Psalm 19:7-11
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether.

10 They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb.

11 Moreover, by them Your servant is warned;
In keeping them there is great reward.

Question: If, according to Noachide theologies that the Torah was unknown or not given to mankind, then why does the 14th century midrash, Yalkut Shimoni, claim that this Psalm is “worthy to have been composed by Adam” when it speaks of the Torah?

The Torah and its instructions as given to Israel at Mt. Sinai existed, was known, and is given to mankind before Noah even received the commandments from God in Genesis 9.

Next, let’s delve into Rashi, and the various sources he gleans from to prove that there was a “Torah” academy run by Shem, and Eber where the patriarchs took “years” to learn the Torah:

Noach: Bereishis/Genesis, Chapter 07 – Rashi
Excerpts: I.e., that is destined to be “clean” [and permitted] for Israel. We learn [from this] that Noach studied Torah.55

Noach: Bereishis/Genesis, Chapter 07 – Text Notes


54 The distinction between the “clean” and “unclean” animals was not made until the giving of the Torah!


This is only a rudimentary presentation. There is more yet to come, and this article will be modified with additional examples. With just a few of the questions above, it becomes apparent that holders of Noachide theology have some explaining to do in order to maintain their theology. I welcome the challenge to answer new questions from the Noachide camp, but I am more interested in finding Noachide answers to these questions already asked.

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20 Responses to “The Torah before Noah – A Refutation of Noachide Theology”

  • Your argument is simple to refute. This is because there’s a difference between general Torah principles given and applicable to all of mankind (in fact, placed by G-d directly into the minds of every human being on the plant) vs. the very specific “customized” Torah designed by G-d to be a national constitution for a nation of Israel living in the Land designated by G-d as twelve tribes, each in their allotted section of the Land, running a Temple run by Priests and Levites (and no one else). This customized Torah just not designed for other nations. Not that it doesn’t contain many basic moral and ethical principles that are applicable to all – it does.

    “Gentiles, who do not have the Torah, do by nature things required by the Torah, they are a Torah for themselves, even though they do not have the Torah.” (Romans 2:14)

    Twice Paul repeats that Gentiles DO NOT HAVE THE TORAH. But you say that Torah was given to everyone, in contradiction to the Apostle (and the teachings of Jewish sages). What Paul means here is that Gentile do not have the Torah that G-d gave to Israel, but they do have the version of Torah that G-d gave to everyone – by nature. Not “two Torahs”, but the same Torah customized for two distinct groups of people. It’s good for Gentiles to learn the Torah as given to Israel – but they need to be cognizant of who the Mosaic Torah was given to and customized for.

    Also, whatever Torah Noah may have studied, it couldn’t have been the Torah of Moses as given to Israel – did he learn about the non-existent Priests and Levites of the not-yet-existent Israel, or about how to divide the lands of not-yet-existent tribes of Israel, or what non–yet-existent cities of Israel a murderer to should escape to? I don’t think so.

    • With all respect, that is not a refutation. When Paul writes “even though they do not have the Torah” does not mean they are not responsible for everything in Torah. Even in the same sentence he says “things required by Torah.” You unjustifiably limit this to a Torah before Moshe. Granted it is true that Torah is Israel’s inheritance, and it is true that she is responsible for guarding these very “oracles of G-d” as Paul says; however her responsibility is to teach Torah to the nations, and for any sincere gentile that desires the place Israel has with Torah, conversion is the means whereby this is accomplished. When Avraham, by faith in the Word of HaShem (the Mashiach) is declared righteous, Torah lays out the instruction that such a person immediately enters into the Covenant, circumcision required! For Avraham, G-d approached him 13 years later to get circumcised or else he would be threatened with karet beyond that point. This teaches us that its G-d who approaches the individual concerning pursuing conversion, and not anyone else.

      I agree that there are different torot for different groups of people, such a priest, Levite, women and men, children, fathers, wives, etc. However – a big however: the only commands that clearly separate Jew from gentile are only those in relation to the gentile choosing to separate himself from Israel, such as the command whereby a gentile “may eat” something a Jew can not. The gentile is not commanded to eat, and therefore the Torah gives him a choice to continue identifying as a gentile. The same is true for any command in Torah where there is a clean distinction of responsibility between Jew and gentile.

      Concerning Noah studying Torah, the only consistent answer is that yes, he would had to have studied the “non-existent Priests and Levites of the not-yet-existent Israel, or about how to divide the lands of not-yet-existent tribes of Israel, or what non–yet-existent cities of Israel a murderer should escape to.” You may find that fallacious, but according to Torah logic, I have to accept that stance unless proven otherwise.

  • “However – a big however: the only commands that clearly separate Jew from gentile are only those in relation to the gentile choosing to separate himself from Israel, such as the command whereby a gentile “may eat” something a Jew can not. ”

    Firstly, the “may eat” is not a command to a Gentile – it’s instructions to a Jew to give this meat to a Gentile (who naturally is allowed to eat any meat except for blood). Secondly, the few Torah instructions that do concern Gentiles are only for those who are living in the Land of Israel under Israel’s jurisdiction. This is not transferable to galut and not even to Modern nation of Israel (which is not a theocracy).

    Through Messiah, as you may know, a Gentile has already been drawn close to Israel (without becoming Israel) and becomes a co-citizen of the Kingdom of Israel (Messianic Kingdom) – again, without actually entering Israel as an Israelite/Jew. Apostles taught against conversion but instead for each to remain in the state they are called. Which means that the conversion option, even if permissible on a case by case basis through *recognized* Jewish authorities, is one that overwhelming majority of Gentiles should not seek.

    • “May eat” is just as much as an instruction to the Gentile as it is to the Jew. In fact, it affects the Gentile more than the Jew at that point. If a Gentile is allowed to eat any meat except for blood, then why does Torah feel the necessity to re-state the obvious with the “he may eat” clause? Don’t we already know (according to your understanding) that Gentiles are already permitted “any meat except for blood”? Why does Torah feel the need to restate the obvious if in fact it was not an allowance given to one who chooses to remain separate from the Jew?

      I disagree that the “requirements of Torah” are not transferable in the exile. After all, Paul was referring to such Gentiles when he mentions such “requirements of Torah.”

      Through Mashiach a Gentile is made a Covenant member, fully equal with all converts in Israel. They essentially become a convert to Judaism, thus a Jew, having fled idolatry (even Talmud explains that one who has fled idolatry is a Jew). This is why a “convert comes to convert” and not a “gentile comes to convert” – for it is understood that even a convert already has a Jewish neshama, the elect of G-d. For men coming to Messiah from the nations, their circumcision is either in this world or in the World to Come, the timing is HaShem’s, and their inheritance either among Judah now, or “in whichever tribe he settles” then. This explains why there is no Gate of the Gentiles in the New Jerusalem, and why Jeremiah 31:33 only mentions the house of Judah and Israel; and why Torah explicitly says of Shiloh “unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be” not gentiles, but peoples. In a sense, you are correct, the Torah is not for the pagans. It already condemns them, as they have no hope of an inheritance in the World to Come since they remain “persisting in [their] own way”. Only of converts is Torah truly a blessing and thus an inheritance for them. That is why refusing conversion to Judaism for the wrong reasons is expected of all battai din. Like a good orthodox rabbi, we see Paul doing the same in forbidding conversion for some of his disciples (who sought conversion as a means of justification, ie salvation by Jewish identity alone). But this could be getting off on too much of a tangent. I appreciate the work you do R. Gene on your site. I disagree with some things, but that’s to be expected around here, as well as on our discussion list, which of course you are welcome to join and would be greatly appreciated at least by myself for helping to bring another viewpoint on many matters – if you’re interested. Shalom.

  • James says:

    Through Mashiach a Gentile is made a Covenant member, fully equal with all converts in Israel. They essentially become a convert to Judaism, thus a Jew, having fled idolatry (even Talmud explains that one who has fled idolatry is a Jew). This is why a “convert comes to convert” and not a “gentile comes to convert”

    Um…wait a minute. Are you saying that I, a non-Jew, became a convert to Judaism when I came to faith in the Jewish Messiah? That’s going to come as quite a shock to my wife (who is Jewish but not Messianic). If that’s true, then what is the difference between me and my friend Gene, who was born, raised, educated, and who lives as an observant Jew? For that matter, what separates me from a fellow like Derek Leman, who was born a Gentile but who chose to convert to (Messianic) Judaism?

    Color me confused.

    • Yes. That’s just it. There is no separation. The difference is that Gene, and now Derek, are held more accountable by their peers who formally recognize an already existing reality – that they are Jews, and have always had a Jewish neshama (Jewish soul). It is not man who converts. It is G-d who does the “conversion”. Man simply has the duty to recognize that reality, through G-d’s established authorities (battai din). This is like Moshe who was held far more accountable for his actions as a leader over Israel, accepted by the elders of Israel, than any other Israelite, although both groups were required to follow the same Torah. By choosing to go through the formal conversion process before a beit din, you are essentially opening yourself up for greater accountability to the Torah by the community gatekeepers – the beit din, and G-d thus holds you more accountable like Moshe. Simply being called a “royal priesthood” means nothing if there is no walk behind it. It’s far easier to walk into a bar, proclaim Jesus is the Messiah, and then eat a cheeseburger, than it is to do the same while wearing a kippah. If it’s just as easy, then I daresay that such a person is not a convert, and certainly not a follower of the Messiah.

      • James says:

        Do I believe that when I became a disciple of the Jewish Messiah that I became more accountable and took on board certain responsibilities? Yes. Do I believe that makes me a Jew? No.

        Whether we feel comfortable about it or not, the Biblical record is clear that Jews have certain covenant responsibilities to God simply by virtue of being Jews. True, some Jewish people choose not to fulfill those responsibilities and there will be consequences for them at some point (look at the history of the Children of Israel whenever they *didn’t* uphold their responsibilities to God). However, those covenant responsibilities aren’t automatically transferable to the rest of the world’s population. They also aren’t all transferable to the population of Gentiles who chose to become disciples of the Messiah, either. Otherwise, there would be no difference between a non-believing Gentile coming to faith in the Messiah and a Gentile converting to Judaism.

        I’ve spent a lot of time examining the “One Law” perspective in MJ, which I previously subscribed to, but the more I study, the more I’m convinced that a Gentile Christian/Messianic disciple, is not functionally and “covenantally” (if there is such a word) identical to a Jew, Messianic or otherwise. I do believe that a non-Jewish disciple of the Jewish Messiah can voluntarily take on board additional mitzvot for the glory of God, but that they (we, in my case) aren’t “obligated” to obey much of the 613 commandments (or the 250-300 or so that can be obeyed today, especially in the galut) in the manner of the Jewish people.

        • A response to James and Gene from R. Yoseph:

          Please show me a definitive list of commands that are incumbent upon the Gentile, the Gentile believer, the Jew, and the Jewish believer. As Judaism claims it created the distinction of commands between Jew and Gentile but has never studied out what the commands are for the Gentile or how they are to be carried out, Why do you promote a position that is a) man made b) is not defined and c) is meant to create division?

          And my response to James:

          What is a true convert to Judaism if not one who is fully submitted to the Torah which is all about Mashiach?

          What obligation upon a disciple of Yeshua is not included in “teach them to observe all that I command you” if what is commanded of them (his Jewish audience) isn’t expected of those who believe from “all nations”, and “all that I command you” is the very Torah he too can neither add to or subtract from?

  • “This explains why there is no Gate of the Gentiles in the New Jerusalem.”

    There’s no need for one. Where was the “Gate of the Gentiles” in ANY Temple? The answer: nowhere, there’s no such gate. Instead, there was a “Court of the Gentiles” – and there’s no reason to believe that there won’t be another one in the Third Temple in Jerusalem where Gentiles can gather to worship the G-d of Israel. After all, there will always be Gentiles (nations) and Jews. We also see that Yeshua himself recognized the “Court of the Gentiles” as being a legitimate place in the Temple for Gentile worship and he did this by expressing his anger that it was used for thievery instead being a “house of prayer to all nations”.

    “Jeremiah 31:33 only mentions the house of Judah and Israel”

    I am not sure what you are getting at. Judah/Israel = the historic Jewish people (and a few converts mixed in, here and there), not Gentile Christians/messianics converting into Jews to become “Israelites”.

    • Where is the “Court of the Gentiles” in the Tabernacle?

      A convert is a convert to what? Judaism. Are you saying then that people you’d call “Gentile Christian/messianics” are not converts to anything? I mean, where is there any example in Torah of a gentile coming to the Jewish community to learn their faith, becomes a believer, is told to go through an immersion, is then called a fellow-heir/Covenant member with Israel, but is not considered a recognized convert to Judaism?

      • “I mean, where is there any example in Torah of a gentile coming to the Jewish community to learn their faith, becomes a believer, is told to go through an immersion, is then called a fellow-heir/Covenant member with Israel, but is not considered a recognized convert to Judaism.”

        In Torah and the prophets only briefly touched on this, but did not revealed in great detail. And that’s precisely where Yeshua the Messiah enters into the picture – revealing the mystery of Gentile inclusion into G-d’s family as fellow heirs together WITH (not IN nor in place of) Israel by his appearance (and work) and opening of the door to Gentiles to come in as Gentiles (that is without conversion to Judaism, without obligation to Mosaic Torah and without becoming Jews/Israelites), per Ephesians 3:1-12:

        “In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Messiah, which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to G-d’s holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the good news the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Yeshua the Messiah. “

        • That still didn’t answer the question though: A convert to what? Judaism or…

          There’s a problem with there being a mystery that is revealed at a later time and for it to be true: it has to be supported fully by Torah, or else it is not truth. Paul can’t write something in addition to Torah. Therefore what he writes has to be found in Torah. Which also means any conclusions you derive from his writings must also have to be found in Torah, or else the probability of your understanding of this matter being correct can be called into question – and well, it is here. Where is “Gentile inclusion into G-d’s family as fellow heirs together WITH (not IN nor in place of) Israel by Messiah’s appearance (and work)…etc.” found anywhere in Torah as a concept, or even hinted at, let alone plainly evident? I am curious, for I have to answer the same to my unbelieving orthodox Jewish brethren who demand such answers.

          • “That still didn’t answer the question though: A convert to what? Judaism or…”

            Not converting to anything – is not the G-d of Israel the G-d of Gentiles also and always has been? Repent from sins – yes. BTW, “converts” (proselytes) is a word that the Bible never ever uses to refer to Gentiles coming to faith in Yeshua, but only to those who had become converts to Judaism. Why is that…hmm? Instead, a Gentile who has become a follower of the G-d of Israel to Yeshua were henceforth and for the last two thousand years is, in addition to staying a “Gentile”, is also called a “Christian” (a moniker that Peter told them not to be ashamed of).

            Interestingly, even the Noahide Movement itself is of Jewish origin and attached to Judaism, but its followers do not consider themselves Jews or Israelites. Gentiles who are “Noahides” are not called “converts” to anything either, even though they too repent and change their ways.

          • Is not one of the essential requirements of converting to Judaism is to accept the Torah and its authority over our life and faith? Thus doesn’t such a true acceptance mean to accept its teachings about Mashiach as understood by our Sages of blessed memory, revealed to the Prophets, expounded upon in the Writings, and witnessed by the community of Israel? Or are you removing faith in Yeshua from having any relationship to the acceptance of the Torah, and thus by implication you are removing the truth of Yeshua, our Mashiach – as taught from the Torah – from the very Torah that is the foundation of our faith as Jews, which is the requirement of converts to Judaism?

            Are you then saying that if you were given opportunity to serve on a beit din, that you’d approve of converting a convert to Judaism, even if they reject the Jewish concept of Messiah and the belief in his coming to establish the Messianic kingdom? Are you telling me you’d be ok with that? How can you remove belief in Mashiach from Torah, and thus from the requirement of a convert to Judaism? According to what Torah do you have the freedom to do so, sir?

            How can any legitimate orthodox Jewish beit din willingly convert a convert to Judaism knowing full well that that convert doesn’t believe in the Jewish concept of messiah as based in the Torah? How much more so a beit din made up of disciples of Yeshua!

            And if this is the definition of a convert to Judaism, then what are the “Gentile Christians” you refer to converts to? Nothing? Are they not converts? What basis in Torah exists whereby one who has faith in the Word of HaShem, is commanded to go through an immersion, and is not considered a convert to Judaism?

            And whereupon can a gentile “do this (Pesach) in remembrance of me” if they themselves are not circumcised according to Torah? Granted, we are not commanded to pressure any gentile who is turning to G-d to get circumcised, (Torah, Ruth, and Acts 15 is clear on this) unless they desire to partake of Pesach… at which point there is no choice available to refuse, short of transgressing Torah itself on the matter. The separate distinction between “Christian Gentiles” and believing Jews you seem to advocate has illogical and contradictory consequences since it is creating a third class of human being that is never mentioned in Torah. You either have a Jewish neshama or you don’t. You are either of the elect of G-d or you aren’t.

  • Jeff says:

    My question is why do we always lay it out on a Gentile to Jewish spectrum where if being a gentile is wrong then being a Jew is right? If being a Jew was the point aimed for, then why does not scripture support that? And if being a Jew is the point aimed for, then why don’t “Godly” men see that as the ultimate goal? And why would Paul hope to make his Jewish brethren jealous of the new Gentile believers? Most of the sages will say that it is the walk that is really heard. Unfortunately, all I ever hear is the talk. Shalom.

    • “If being a Jew was the point aimed for, then why does not scripture support that? ”

      Jeff, precisely. This is why the Judaizing of the Christians/Gentiles (that is trying to convince them that it’s supposedly G-d’s will for them to become “Jewish”) is such a disservice to the true message of Messiah, that is that the Kingdom is now open to both Jews and Gentiles. To tell Gentiles that they must become Jews is to tell them that G-d has made them defective.

      • The Jerusalem Council says:

        According to Talmud, who is it that comes to convert? Does a Gentile come to convert, or does a convert come to convert to Judaism? So then what is a convert to Messiah’s teaching, aka the Torah, if not to the sect of Judaism known as HaDerech? Then in that light, is one who is considered a “convert” to Judaism thus instructed to legally certify his conversion for the benefit of the community or is he told to go off and be a lone ranger and pretend he’s a Jew inwardly to the desecration of the Name upon which he claims to carry? And according to the Sages, is such a legal recognition of a convert to Judaism necessary in order for one to follow Torah, or even be encouraged to follow Torah?

        There is no disservice to the Message when the understanding is that there is only the elect of G-d, called Israel, and everyone else. Calling one to Torah and thus conversion, is not a proclamation that one was created defective, but rather a acknowledgment that one was created elect already – that one already has a Jewish neshama. Thus this is an encouragement to return to the very Torah to which that neshama already has a claim of inheritance to, and thus later conversion is a requirement for community recognition and accountability to that claim. Such a discussion is an acknowledgment that G-d himself desires His people to make teshuvah – no matter how ignorant they are of the Torah which is theirs, or the calling of G-d for them to follow Torah which is His plan either in this World or in the World to Come. It is a true prophetic call – as all prophecy is a call to teshuvah – a teshuvah dependent upon the covenantal identity of who one already is when they are confirmed by faith in Messiah Yeshua. Acknowledging believers as converts to Judaism from the nations is not a disservice to the Message of Messiah, but rather refusing to do so is.

  • Yaakov Schmadl says:

    The Stone Edition Tanch says Genesis 26:5 That Abraham observed MY safegards,MY commandments,MY degrees,and MY Torahs.

  • G-d gave HaAdam (Adam) six, Noah seven, Avraham eight, Yaakov (Jacob) nine, and Yehudah (Judah) ten commandments before giving Israel the 613 commandments at Mount Sinai.

    • The Jerusalem Council says:

      …And yet it is written that “if you break one commandment, you break them all” – thus the entire Torah can be derived from any commandment given to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Israel.