Comments on: Head Coverings http://jerusalemcouncil.org/halacha/dress/head-coverings/ A Global Association of Orthodox Jewish Believers Sat, 24 Jul 2010 13:50:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Israel b. Betzalel http://jerusalemcouncil.org/halacha/dress/head-coverings/comment-page-1/#comment-431 Israel b. Betzalel Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:59:31 +0000 http://jerusalemcouncil.org/?p=396#comment-431 A "Gentile" can't reach out to an orthodox "Jew," for the orthodox Jew already believes they are "in" while the Gentile is "out." To the orthodox Jew, your question would be confusing. Why would he ever be enticed to consider joining something that he already considers "outside" of Torah and Judaism? Why follow a messiah that a Gentile preaches if the Gentile himself while claiming to be a disciple of said messiah, doesn't have a heart to keep Torah, and shows no interest in joining God's people and keep more Torah? According to Deuteronomy 13, such a messiah preached by the Gentile would be a false prophet, and the orthodox Jew can reject such for just cause. Since one can't use their interpretation and understanding of the writings of the Apostles to convince an orthodox Jew to become a believer, what remains? Ultimately only the Torah remains, and thus the "Gentile" believer is forced to know Torah in order to preach Messiah to the orthodox. Yet to the Jew, if the Gentile doesn't know the Torah, why bother to listen to him? Doesn't the Gentile, who claims to follow the Jewish Messiah even know the foundation upon which he claims his faith stands? After all, if a Gentile knows Torah, it is surmised, aren't they in the least bit enticed and led to keep it - and thus become part of the choosen People, the Elect of God, the Jewish Nation, a Jew in full imitation of a Jewish Messiah? After all, in the mind of a Jew, a "disciple" is one who imitates their rabbi fully. How can a Gentile do this if he remains Gentile? So no, a Gentile can not reach out to an orthodox Jew, any more than a Mormon can reach out to a strict Christian apologist. The concept is anathema to everything the Jew knows, stands for, believes, and follows, the Torah being the foundation and boundary for what he believes or will ever accept. A “Gentile” can’t reach out to an orthodox “Jew,” for the orthodox Jew already believes they are “in” while the Gentile is “out.” To the orthodox Jew, your question would be confusing. Why would he ever be enticed to consider joining something that he already considers “outside” of Torah and Judaism? Why follow a messiah that a Gentile preaches if the Gentile himself while claiming to be a disciple of said messiah, doesn’t have a heart to keep Torah, and shows no interest in joining God’s people and keep more Torah? According to Deuteronomy 13, such a messiah preached by the Gentile would be a false prophet, and the orthodox Jew can reject such for just cause. Since one can’t use their interpretation and understanding of the writings of the Apostles to convince an orthodox Jew to become a believer, what remains? Ultimately only the Torah remains, and thus the “Gentile” believer is forced to know Torah in order to preach Messiah to the orthodox. Yet to the Jew, if the Gentile doesn’t know the Torah, why bother to listen to him? Doesn’t the Gentile, who claims to follow the Jewish Messiah even know the foundation upon which he claims his faith stands? After all, if a Gentile knows Torah, it is surmised, aren’t they in the least bit enticed and led to keep it – and thus become part of the choosen People, the Elect of God, the Jewish Nation, a Jew in full imitation of a Jewish Messiah? After all, in the mind of a Jew, a “disciple” is one who imitates their rabbi fully. How can a Gentile do this if he remains Gentile? So no, a Gentile can not reach out to an orthodox Jew, any more than a Mormon can reach out to a strict Christian apologist. The concept is anathema to everything the Jew knows, stands for, believes, and follows, the Torah being the foundation and boundary for what he believes or will ever accept.

]]> By: Rick http://jerusalemcouncil.org/halacha/dress/head-coverings/comment-page-1/#comment-429 Rick Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:53:51 +0000 http://jerusalemcouncil.org/?p=396#comment-429 Rather curious about this whole thing concerning head coverings. I am a person of Gentile heritage, who neither considers himself Jew or Gentile after the teaching that we are of one new body. However, I do desire to go to the roots of Christianity and start from there, which I have been studying and practicing a little at a time. When in a church I don't wear a hat, as it would be unseemly, and considered out of place. In a Messianic Jewish synagogue that would be no problem with me, as concerning "fitting in". I have done some research on the subject and consider today's cultural practices in Western society. I have no problem with not wearing a hat, and practicing G-d's presence doesn't require a hat or any other covering for a man, (though if a personal conviction has someone else do that kind of thing, I have no problem with it). Now, in light of the fact that I am of Gentile heritage, how would one comport themselves with non Jewish, in order to reach non Jewish people, present day? Furthermore, how would one who is of Gentile heritage reach out toward those of Jewish heritage? Rather curious about this whole thing concerning head coverings. I am a person of Gentile heritage, who neither considers himself Jew or Gentile after the teaching that we are of one new body. However, I do desire to go to the roots of Christianity and start from there, which I have been studying and practicing a little at a time.

When in a church I don’t wear a hat, as it would be unseemly, and considered out of place. In a Messianic Jewish synagogue that would be no problem with me, as concerning “fitting in”. I have done some research on the subject and consider today’s cultural practices in Western society. I have no problem with not wearing a hat, and practicing G-d’s presence doesn’t require a hat or any other covering for a man, (though if a personal conviction has someone else do that kind of thing, I have no problem with it).

Now, in light of the fact that I am of Gentile heritage, how would one comport themselves with non Jewish, in order to reach non Jewish people, present day? Furthermore, how would one who is of Gentile heritage reach out toward those of Jewish heritage?

]]> By: R. Bobavich http://jerusalemcouncil.org/halacha/dress/head-coverings/comment-page-1/#comment-411 R. Bobavich Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:00:14 +0000 http://jerusalemcouncil.org/?p=396#comment-411 While I hold to the arguments addressed I have to admit that they are not yet presented strongly. Often that way that what seems not to be surface is in fact Torah. The Shulchan Aruch could have erred. However I've not seen any source that places this observance older that Talmud Baveli. I was told of a story in Baveli of a Rebbe who eats another man's fruit without realizing it. When confronted he quips that he didn't have a covering on his head to remind of Heaven... NOTE: I do not have the exact reference for this or the circumstances surrounding it. It's something to look at as this would put the tradition back to Baveli. Whether it goes back further is something for which we'd need to consult the historians. I don't know of any previous references but they could exist. If a kippah is Torah and not merely ordinance we should be able to support by historic observation as well... Did the Master cover His head and teach others to do likewise...? Haven't found proof on either side yet. This is not a scholarly opinion yet. If it is as much of an issue as you suggest we should be able to find proof from the earlier times. If the custom was common and predated Yeshua then we can accept this opinion. If it is not we have to hold to the majority opinion that a kipah is ordinance rather than commandment. THIS NEEDS MORE RESEARCH. ...Rods ;-) While I hold to the arguments addressed I have to admit that they are not yet presented strongly. Often that way that what seems not to be surface is in fact Torah. The Shulchan Aruch could have erred. However I’ve not seen any source that places this observance older that Talmud Baveli.

I was told of a story in Baveli of a Rebbe who eats another man’s fruit without realizing it. When confronted he quips that he didn’t have a covering on his head to remind of Heaven…

NOTE: I do not have the exact reference for this or the circumstances surrounding it.

It’s something to look at as this would put the tradition back to Baveli. Whether it goes back further is something for which we’d need to consult the historians. I don’t know of any previous references but they could exist. If a kippah is Torah and not merely ordinance we should be able to support by historic observation as well…

Did the Master cover His head and teach others to do likewise…? Haven’t found proof on either side yet. This is not a scholarly opinion yet. If it is as much of an issue as you suggest we should be able to find proof from the earlier times. If the custom was common and predated Yeshua then we can accept this opinion. If it is not we have to hold to the majority opinion that a kipah is ordinance rather than commandment.

THIS NEEDS MORE RESEARCH.

…Rods ;-)

]]> By: Israel b. Betzalel http://jerusalemcouncil.org/halacha/dress/head-coverings/comment-page-1/#comment-410 Israel b. Betzalel Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:06:17 +0000 http://jerusalemcouncil.org/?p=396#comment-410 That "Para" is also related to the first use in the Torah where it describes Pharaoh, I think the link is obvious - the Torah is teaching us that one who is uncovered is one who identifies with Pharaoh, and that what the Shulchan Aruch thinks is a rabbinic, is actually Torah. That “Para” is also related to the first use in the Torah where it describes Pharaoh, I think the link is obvious – the Torah is teaching us that one who is uncovered is one who identifies with Pharaoh, and that what the Shulchan Aruch thinks is a rabbinic, is actually Torah.

]]> By: Avraham http://jerusalemcouncil.org/halacha/dress/head-coverings/comment-page-1/#comment-408 Avraham Sun, 05 Apr 2009 14:10:35 +0000 http://jerusalemcouncil.org/?p=396#comment-408 I would also advise any referance to the issues of wearing a Kippah to see the Shulchan Aruch which states its not a mitzvah or biblical commandment but rather its is a custom in which is regarded as a honor. Therefore, for any who seek to place any biblical status on it must understand its not even a biblical issue of M'derisa but rather is a Rabbinic requirement. I would also advise any referance to the issues of wearing a Kippah to see the Shulchan Aruch which states its not a mitzvah or biblical commandment but rather its is a custom in which is regarded as a honor. Therefore, for any who seek to place any biblical status on it must understand its not even a biblical issue of M’derisa but rather is a Rabbinic requirement.

]]> By: Avraham http://jerusalemcouncil.org/halacha/dress/head-coverings/comment-page-1/#comment-407 Avraham Sun, 05 Apr 2009 13:55:23 +0000 http://jerusalemcouncil.org/?p=396#comment-407 Although Israel states this as a hedge the acctual meaning of these two verses is are in fact separate issues which involve a specific commandment. Leviticus 13:45 “As for the leper who has the infection, his clothes shall be torn, and the hair of his head shall be uncovered" The acctual word uses here does not actually mean to uncover rather "Para" (Peh-Resh-Ayin) means:to make free with out restriction of conflicting movement. Here its ment as a euphamism for making ones head bald. Were as in Numbers 5:18 which states "And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman’s head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering; and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse." Were here there same verb "Para" is being used in referance to the womans hair is to be made to flow freely in movement as to express that her head is to be uncovered in order to allow her hair to move about as a sign of her rebellion in which she has acted like one who has no husband in which we are told in Gen 24:75 that once a married woman is in the presence of men she must cover her head in order to obey the commandment of covering ones head. As for men no such commandment is given outside the issue of the cohenim who service is only required as such upon their serving in the Temple. Although Israel states this as a hedge the acctual meaning of these two verses is are in fact separate issues which involve a specific commandment.

Leviticus 13:45
“As for the leper who has the infection, his clothes shall be torn, and the hair of his head shall be uncovered” The acctual word uses here does not actually mean to uncover rather “Para” (Peh-Resh-Ayin) means:to make free with out restriction of conflicting movement. Here its ment as a euphamism for making ones head bald. Were as in Numbers 5:18 which states “And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman’s head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering; and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse.” Were here there same verb “Para” is being used in referance to the womans hair is to be made to flow freely in movement as to express that her head is to be uncovered in order to allow her hair to move about as a sign of her rebellion in which she has acted like one who has no husband in which we are told in Gen 24:75 that once a married woman is in the presence of men she must cover her head in order to obey the commandment of covering ones head. As for men no such commandment is given outside the issue of the cohenim who service is only required as such upon their serving in the Temple.

]]> By: Kathleen Tice http://jerusalemcouncil.org/halacha/dress/head-coverings/comment-page-1/#comment-104 Kathleen Tice Tue, 03 Mar 2009 03:16:09 +0000 http://jerusalemcouncil.org/?p=396#comment-104 That was interesting thank you! That was interesting thank you!

]]> By: Israel b. Betzalel http://jerusalemcouncil.org/halacha/dress/head-coverings/comment-page-1/#comment-102 Israel b. Betzalel Tue, 03 Mar 2009 01:07:45 +0000 http://jerusalemcouncil.org/?p=396#comment-102 Heh, I had to take this article out of draft, just for you. It answers your question: <a href="http://jerusalemcouncil.org/articles/commentaries/yeshua-fig-tree-adam-eve/" rel="nofollow">Understanding the Cursed Fig Tree</a>. Heh, I had to take this article out of draft, just for you. It answers your question: Understanding the Cursed Fig Tree.

]]> By: Kathleen Tice http://jerusalemcouncil.org/halacha/dress/head-coverings/comment-page-1/#comment-99 Kathleen Tice Mon, 02 Mar 2009 06:35:49 +0000 http://jerusalemcouncil.org/?p=396#comment-99 Thank you so much! You have been very helpful! I do have a question but I'm not sure where to post it. In Matthew 21:19 Yesuah curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit- even though the tree was in season to bear fruit. I'm missing something- why would he do this? Thank you so much! You have been very helpful!

I do have a question but I’m not sure where to post it.
In Matthew 21:19 Yesuah curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit- even though the tree was in season to bear fruit.

I’m missing something- why would he do this?

]]> By: Israel b. Betzalel http://jerusalemcouncil.org/halacha/dress/head-coverings/comment-page-1/#comment-90 Israel b. Betzalel Fri, 27 Feb 2009 06:22:00 +0000 http://jerusalemcouncil.org/?p=396#comment-90 I agree with you too. One should be careful so as not to contradict HaShem's Torah. This conversation has been a pleasure - hopefully you'll find me a humble and patient teacher, who learns far more from my students, than my students probably will from me. I am not above changing any deeply held stance, provided the truth is evident. My heart, like yours, and others who visit here, is for teshuvah for the Master's glory. If you have any other questions, let me know - I'll may dread giving you my opinion (there's a lot of responsibility with posting on this site), but I will try at least to be honest with what I (and others around here) know and share that with you. I look forward to anything else you may add to these articles from your insight and experience. We aim to build this site organically to address common objections to teshuvah in many areas, and responses like yours serve to give us a direction as to what to address next - and as we do so, and as we are challenged, it causes both us and our readership to mature in the process. Shalom! :) I agree with you too. One should be careful so as not to contradict HaShem’s Torah.

This conversation has been a pleasure – hopefully you’ll find me a humble and patient teacher, who learns far more from my students, than my students probably will from me. I am not above changing any deeply held stance, provided the truth is evident. My heart, like yours, and others who visit here, is for teshuvah for the Master’s glory.

If you have any other questions, let me know – I’ll may dread giving you my opinion (there’s a lot of responsibility with posting on this site), but I will try at least to be honest with what I (and others around here) know and share that with you.

I look forward to anything else you may add to these articles from your insight and experience. We aim to build this site organically to address common objections to teshuvah in many areas, and responses like yours serve to give us a direction as to what to address next – and as we do so, and as we are challenged, it causes both us and our readership to mature in the process. Shalom! :)

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