The Jerusalem Council

A Global Association of Orthodox Jewish Believers in Messiah Yeshua

Is Yeshua G-d?

Many ask us if we believe Yeshua is G-d. We respond:

  • G-d is not a man. (Num 23:19)
  • HaShem is a man. (Ex 15:3)
  • Yehoshua is the name of HaShem (Ex 33:11-23)
  • We have have no other King, Savior, or Redeemer than HaShem. (1 Saml 8:7, Ex 15:2, Ex 6:6)
  • Yehoshua/Yeshua is the Messiah, and he is our King, Savior, and Redeemer. (Matt 1:16, Acts 13:23, Gal 3:14)

Outside of these statements, we can not say anything more, for we would be saying something that G-d in his wisdom never thought to put explicitly in the scriptures. And we are not G-d, so we are not going to say that which he didn’t say and make declarations that He never did. We can acknowledge the divine mission of Messiah from the Torah,  and that he is called HaShem, and that HaShem is divine, and we can declare with scripture that HaShem is our King, Savior, and Redeemer, but if we want to have an answer to this question that is purely scripture, we can not make such a declaration that “Yeshua is divine,” or that “Yeshua is G-d.” We can say, however, that “Yeshua is the Word of HaShem,” and we can say that “the Savior of Israel is HaShem.” Beyond that, we are in danger of adding to the Torah, and of leaping into idolatry.

Please see the article on Trinitarianism for more information regarding why it is wrong to expose or demand conformity to an imagined nakedness of G-d that he never revealed to us.

G-d is not a man.

Numbers 23:19:
G-d is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

HaShem is a man.

Exodus 15:3:
HaShem is a man of war;
HaShem is his name.

We have have no other King, Savior, or Redeemer than HaShem.

Numbers 23:21
He has not observed misfortune in Jacob;
Nor has He seen trouble in Israel;
The LORD his G-d is with him,
And the shout of a king is among them.

1 Samuel 8:7
And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king.

Exodus 15:2
The LORD is my strength and my song;
he has become my salvation.
He is my G-d, and I will praise him,
my father’s G-d, and I will exalt him.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.

Exodus 6:6
Therefore, say to the Israelites: ‘I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. I will free you from being slaves to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment.

Psalm 31:5
Into your hands I commit my spirit;
redeem me, O LORD, the G-d of truth.

Yehoshua is the name of HaShem.

Exodus 33:11-23:
11 HaShem would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Yehoshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.

12 Moses said to HaShem, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ 13 If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.” 14 HaShem replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.” 15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

17 And HaShem said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.” 18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.” 19 And HaShem said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, HaShem, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” 21 Then the LORD said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

Yeshua is the Messiah, and he is our King, Savior, and Redeemer.

Matthew 1:16
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Yeshua, who is called Messiah.

Acts 13:23
From this man’s descendants G-d has brought to Israel the Savior Yeshua, as he promised.

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Messiah Yeshua, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

We hope these verses help you understand how we approach the identity of Messiah on this website. If you have questions, feel free to ask below. Shalom.

Common Statement: True, saving belief in the person of Christ demands that He be accepted & worshiped as G-d….

What language in Scripture suggests this to you? Where do any of the apostles ever say, “Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is G-d, and thou shalt be saved”?

It is my view that there are other formulations that capture the concept of Messiah being a manifestation of HaShem (like the Angel of HaShem who is separate from HaShem but has His Name in him), without resorting to trinitarian statements. The bald assertion, that “Jesus is G-d”, glosses over the nuances of the situation, and leads one dangerously close to making an assertion that borders on idolatry.

The sufficiency of scripture apparently is not enough for most of our friends in Christendom. There is an inherent danger when one adds to scripture something that it doesn’t say… especially when it’s concerning who G-d is. It took me years to realize this. Yes, according to scripture (Gen 31:13, see Messiah is called HaShem, the Beit El), the Messiah is “HaShem” (the one who works what He does), the LORD, -Y-H-V-H. Saying “Messiah is HaShem,” though,  somehow isn’t enough some of our more demanding brothers in the faith demanding to know who we believe Messiah to be. Demanding a answer that is is addition to what is given here, seems to me to be a surrendering to one’s evil inclination in their attempt to control G-d by a man-made declarative definition. People have died for this. The desire to define G-d apart from precisely what scripture says, is the basis of idolatry.

To say that “Jesus is G-d,” or even “Messiah is just a man,” compromises the truth of scripture with the evil inclination.  Such a statement is an oversimplification of the identity of Messiah to our own detriment. Such oversimplification leads to the deification of a man, and thus idolatry; or to the profaning of the holiest messenger sent by HaShem himself, and thus blasphemy.  I believe the great Christian overemphasis on the divinity of Messiah has spawned an unhealthy bent toward defining Messiah Yeshua as the totality of G-d, usually at the cost of his humanity, and certainly contrary to the scriptures that say that G-d is not a man; and I believe the Jewish overemphasis on the manhood of Messiah to the exclusion of his divine mission, has spawned an unhealthy bent toward defining him as a mere man, at the cost of his divine mission to redeem all Israel, and contrary to the scriptures that say he is (only) born of a woman. Both attempts to define G-d, and define the Messiah apart from scripture, only leads to a corruption of the truth and integrity of the scripture that G-d himself saw fit to not add any additional details.

Some desire to define G-d in order to control him and thus get him to respond to their prayers “in Jesus name” – as they willfully continue to break his commandments; and some desire to define Messiah as just a man, so as to have no reason to submit to him and his authority as the King of Israel – as they too willfully continue to break his commandments. Both answers to the question are in error, and both answers lead to idolatry, one to the immediate idolatry of a man, the other to the eventual idolatry of self.

To say that Yeshua is both G-d and human, is an overly simplistic approach to understanding G-d that borders on adding to scripture in a way that it doesn’t intend. I find it amazing that the sufficiency of scripture is somehow not sufficient to those who want to jump to the claim that Jesus is the totality of G-d, when it is far more accurate to agree with the written scriptures (and not men’s imaginations) and simply say that he is HaShem, and leave it at that.

This then is who Yeshua is: He is not just a man, and as a man, he is not from Adam, but from G-d. He is the Word of HaShem, the Memra, the Davar, the Righteous One, he didn’t become righteous, he is righteous. He is called G-d’s Son, he is the agent of HaShem called HaShem, and he is “HaShem” who we interact with and not die. What scripture says is sufficient for me in this regard. I need not peer under the clothing of scripture and expose an imagined nakedness to glory of G-d that is created by our own yetzer hara (evil inclination).

Tags: , , , , , ,

48 Responses to “Is Yeshua G-d?”

  • Uziel Omar says:

    When we see that titles like ‘elohim,’ ‘adonai’ and others that can be aplied to Hashem and to humans we shoul understand that when is aplied to Hashem is the term in its absolute perfect way.

    I see some contradictions in this article. First you say that, “we can not make such a declaration that Yeshua is divine, or that Yeshua is G-d” and that “G-d is not a man” but then you say that “we have have no other King, Savior, or Redeemer than HaShem” and that “Yeshua is the Messiah, and he is our King, Savior, and Redeemer.” Clearly in this last sentence you are saying that Hashem and Rabenu Yeshua are the same.

    I believe that Hashem is one. A real ‘one’ not a metaphorical ‘one.’

    So, is he divine?

    The hebrew word translated as divine is ‘elohut.’ In the Tanak we see that the word ‘elohim’ is aplied to Moshe, judges, angel and more. Mashiach is greater than Moshe.

    Taking out the hellenistic view we can say That Rabenu Yeshua is divine in the hebrew sense of ‘elohut.’ He beeing a ‘elohim’ but not the Elohim. Actualy, after Hashem, he is the gratest ‘elohim.’

    B’Shalom

  • Israel says:

    There isn’t a contradiction between “we can not make such a declaration that Yeshua is divine” and “Yeshua is the King,” and “we have no other King but HaShem.” We can make no such declaration (because scripture doesn’t). We can say that Yeshua is the Messiah, and that the Messiah is the Davar HaShem, and that the Davar HaShem is the angel of HaShem, and that the angel of HaShem has the name of HaShem in him. But to make the leap to “Yeshua is HaShem” or “Yeshua is G-d” is a statement of declaration for which we have no precise scriptural warrant to make, because G-d in his wisdom never gave us such a declarative statement. That is all. I completely agree with what you said concerning Moshiach – we can certainly see his oneness with G-d. I often make this argument: if according to rabbis of Judaism that the people of Israel are echad with HaShem as they engage in Torah (as it is written “I know their pains” in Ex 3:7), then I say that the Moshiach is that much more so echad with G-d, since his soul is perfect and redeems all Israel by his perfect righteousness.

    Shalom

  • Uziel Omar says:

    Rabenu Yeshua is one with Hashem in the context of Yechidah. He was open to Yechidah conciousness.

    B’Shalom

  • Avraham says:

    Actually it is a contradiction in statement! But I speak only inregard to your visible stance. The very remark or stance as to say Yeshua is he really G-d? And with that very same breath say scripture never said this explicitly should alone cause your own stance in all areas of Torah to be looked at through patient and meticulous eyes. The very fact that G-d through out the Torah calls upon a being whom is called himself יהוה causes us the very questions of whom is this he speaks of? As we find over and over again through out the Torah.

    Example: Gen/Berashit 19:24 “And יהוה rained upon Sodom and upon Gamorah fire and brimstone from יהוה.” Now why does it not write here from heaven or at least it could have said was “brimstone” and ended it as such. Therefore from the Torah alone it demands you to recognize there is another called יהוה. As it is also written in Ex/Shemot 24:1 “And unto Moshe he said, “Ascend unto יהוה” Why does the Torah once again refer to יהוה in the third person when it was indeed G-d who was speaking to Moshe at that very command.

    The answers are clear in that they are meant to lead you to the Torah’s desired conclusion which is there are indeed two יהוה however in order for the Torah to not leave you with a false conclusion the Torah says, “Listen Israel יהוה our G-d יהוה is one” Had the Torah written it “Listen Israel יהוה our G-d is alone. I would have completely been lead to think that he was saying G-d is indeed one and there is no other. However, the grammar here seeks to teach something all alone different from all the conclusions. Because in it the Torah shows us that the second time the Noun יהוה is mentioned is redundent and bears no real grammatical need here, therefore its meaning is meant in relation to something else. That being these two יהוה are in fact one and the same thing. The question that is asked once this is understood is then what is this second יהוה of which the Torah writes, “With the beginning G-d created the heavens and the earth.” Gen/Berashit 1:1. And what is the beginning? The Torah lays out this answer very clearly when saying, “And he said…” i.e. the beginning is indeed the words of G-d which came forth from his mouth in which all source of life by it came into being were indeed brought into being through it.
    As to say G-d is not a man in the quotation of Num/Bamidbar 23:21 is merely the issue in which the Torah is stating G-d is not febble and corporal nor an action of divine creation. This statement does not mean G-d is incapable of being in human form. For as even the Torah says man was created in the image and likeness of G-d, as in “in the likeness of G-d made he him…in the image of G-d created he him” Gen/Berashit 1:17;5:1 Therefore, the Torah alone proves G-d is was and has always been able to appear in human form since we were created in the image and likeness of G-d. Something which is not only not a true statment but in the very words alone צלם which means “a representation of something” and דמות “a resemblance of something” complete grounds of the legal permission given in the actual Torah which allow G-d the ability to make his words flesh as is given in the New Testament account. Which is completely apposed to the issues contained in the sunjects of סמל “that which represents a form or distinct shape of a being” and תמונה “that which is meant to distinguish shape and defined physical atributes” which is as Ex/Shemot 20 is that which is defined as paganism and therefore since man was made in the image צלם and the likeness דמות his word being made flesh does not legally follow under the lines of that which can be deemed as paganism. Rather the opposite is proven, that being, his word is legally able to become flesh.
    Now in regard to his being questioned, in regard to his being divine, is actually less difficult when we are told that his word was made flesh and dwelt among us. For to say his word is not G-d is just as rediculous as one who speaks behind a wall and those who hear him declair that is not your voice but the walls. For indeed his voice is him and therefore his voice is just as Yeshua declaired himself saying, “The father is greater then I” For we are only told by the scriptures alone all who heed his voice is as if one heeded the actual one who spoke it. Therefore, in truth since he is the actual voice of G-d made flesh he can not declair anything if the one who projects his word forth, has not yet spoken it which is why he indeed decalired in Mar 13:32, “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” Since Yeshua is the word of G-d how is it possible that he would know? Its not and because he is not G-d but rather because he the word was not sent nor spoken by G-d to perform this part of G-ds will. Therefore, This is why he declairs all through out his teachings not to replace him for the fullness of G-d but rather understand he is the word “i.e. as Isaiah declaired G-d with us” which is the spoken essence of G-d which was flesh which dwelt among us and therefore is G-d but is not his fullness which means we are not to look at him as the entirety of G-d. But he is indeed divine for G-ds word is still G-d but we are not to view the word as if it and that which spoke it are two separate beings. Rather, the Torah declairs in full because of sin G-d has hidden himself and his spoke word acts as witness with him and his word in order to testify againt man yet although they are seen as two he is in fact that which was spoken from the very mouth of that which sent forth his word. And since he is the word he in himself can not be declaired as a separate being or entity even though we in our world see him touch him for this is the mystery of G-d in which through his voice and word guides us and separates us and acts for us as an advocate when yet he is merely just the voice of G-d and nothing more. And therefore in doing anything evil to him whom he spoke to become flesh we are accounted as evil and wicked if we be found guilty of sheding the blood of his divine word. And as we so live even in death, our soul remians he G-d has declaired to us is and has become our redeemer if we will indeed believe on him.

  • Joseph G says:

    I’m requesting some clarification. In the original post, Israel states, “Yes, according to scripture (Gen 31:13, see Messiah is called HaShem, the Beit El), the Messiah is HaShem, the LORD, -Y-H-V-H – however one wants to display it.” Later in the post dated February 12, 2009, Israel states, “We can say that Yeshua is the Messiah,…” Now, I may be using the wrong “logic”; however, it would seem that if Messiah is HaShem and Yeshua is Messiah, what’s incorrect about the statement that Yeshua is Hashem? I’m not attempting to play a semantic game, I really want to get a better grasp on what Torah states and not fall into the trap of the yetzer hara. Your assistance in overcoming my own difficulty is appreciated.

  • Thank you gentlemen for your replies. I agree with them all. As I myself am apt to point out, it says “Eloheim lo ish.” It does not say, “HaShem lo ish.” To say Yeshua is HaShem, could be construed by others as meaning he is G-d, since it is written “Anochi Adonai Eloheichem,” so rather than go beyond scripture and make the connection up front, it is more appropriate to say that Yeshua, the Messiah, is called HaShem, and even called the House of G-d as it is written “Anochi haEl Beit El asher mashachtah.” This is because he is the anointed agent of HaShem who has the name of HaShem in him, and is who we interact with and not die when we interact with HaShem.

    Yet the Psalmist writes, “L’HaShem haYeshua.” And Isaiah says “Yah HaShem v’yehi li l’Yeshua.”

    It is true, we have no other King, Savior, or Redeemer than HaShem. And it is true that the Messiah is the King, Savior, and Redeemer of Israel. And it is true, Yeshua is the Messiah. I can agree that Yeshua the Messiah is called HaShem, for “all who call upon the name of Adonai shall be saved.” HaShem is our Salvation, and this has been true since men began to either call upon or profane the name of HaShem since Gen 4:26. I hopes this helps keep us within the framework of Torah, and our focus on the truth, rather than our own imaginations, for the sake of both Christians and unbelieving Jews who read this article.

    Shalom.

  • Uziel says:

    First of all Mosheh wrote the Torah. Not Hashem. Second Hashem uses angels as messengers. Hes not always talking. Angels are speaking for Him and is taken as if Hashem is speaking.

    The two Names on the Sheme are not redundant is enfaticall!!

    There have not been such a teaching in Israel of two Hashem’s. Neither in the most remote isolated comunity of Bene Israel. There is not a mention in the Tanak of this two Hashem. No one says “because we believe in two Hashem’s” nowere. Hashem is an absolute one!!!!! 1+1=1 or 2

    If you believe that there are 2 hashem then you are falling in Avodat Zarah.

    These belives are based in Greek translations of the Ketuvim Natzratim. They were not written in Greek.

    • “First of all Mosheh wrote the Torah. Not Hashem.”

      Actually, it is written:

      “And the LORD said unto Moses: “Come up to Me into the mount and be there; and I will give thee the tables of stone, and the Torah, and the commandment, which I have written, that thou mayest teach them.”” (Exodus 24:12).

      “There have not been such a teaching in Israel of two Hashem’s.”

      I am curious what you think of:

      Genesis 19:24
      וַיהוָה הִמְטִיר עַל-סְדֹם וְעַל-עֲמֹרָה גָּפְרִית וָאֵשׁ מֵאֵת יְהוָה מִן-הַשָּׁמָיִם

      There is only one HaShem. And then there is His Angel who is called HaShem.

      “If you believe that there are 2 hashem then you are falling in Avodat Zarah.”

      Agreed!

  • The concept that the Word can become flesh is found reiterated in the Tanya (Chapter 4). Where it says the Torah and the Holy One, Blessed be He, are one. It goes on to say that the Torah descended through the worlds and took on corporeal form in mitzvot and good deeds. The context in the Tanya is that this is true of Israel as it explains that as Israel keeps the mitzvot, it is one with Torah, and thus echad with HaShem. To that end, it is not that much of a stretch to understand that if Israel is echad with HaShem through the Torah in the corporeal form of their keeping of mitzvot, how much more so too is Messiah echad with HaShem through the Torah in the corporeal form of his perfect keeping of mitzvot! This then helps explain how the Messiah can speak for HaShem, and be called by HaShem’s name, just as Israel is expected to teach Torah to the nations and be called by His name.

  • Uziel says:

    To have the Name dosnt mean to be the Name. Hashem is our redeemer, but he use Mosheh as His tool to redeem Israel and set us free from boudage. Hashem is our savior and He used Rabenu Yehoshua miNaztrat as the tool to save us. We have no other king than Hashem, but David was king over Israel and that dosnt meen that David was Hashem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It is written

    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Yochanan 17:20-22

    If we can be one with them as R. Yehoshua is one with Hashem then we can be Hashem also????????? NOT!

    • If you’re talking about the Greater and Lesser HaShem heresies, no, I don’t think that’s what was being explained above by Avi. He was pointing out what the Torah clearly shows a redundant HaShem if truly there wasn’t an agency of HaShem at work in the text. Yet we do see an agency of HaShem at work in text. The Zohar even recognizes this point when it asks concerning the Shema, “How can these three be one?”

    • That’s the point of the Zohar’s question. They are not one and the same. They are echad.

      When King David was King, he was not HaShem, of course, because during the time of Saul, HaShem said of Israel “they have rejected me as their King.” The point is, the true King of Israel is HaShem – alone.

      To throw you for a loop, within Chassidism it is understood that G-d is everything, and everything is G-d. Of course we are not Messiah. Thus we are not as echad with HaShem as he is. Messiah is perfect, and thus he is echad with HaShem as much as Torah is echad with HaShem. As Avi made the case, Messiah is the Word of HaShem in the flesh.

      Do we call upon the name of HaShem to be saved? “No other name has been given among men whereby we must be saved.” This name is Yeshua, by definition. Is Yeshua HaShem? That’s an overly simplistic statement that misses out on the fact the he is the agent of HaShem. As I said, I can only say that Yeshua the Messiah, is called by the name of HaShem.

  • Uziel says:

    That dosnt mean that they are the same. They are one in the context of Yechidah.

  • Uziel says:

    Sory my brothers. I feel some confuccion. To me Hashem is an absolute one not a methaphorical one. This is explained in the book Duties of the Heart of R. Bechaye ibn Pakuda. To me Rabenu Yehoshua is the second in charge. He is the Mashiach. But he is not Hashem.

  • Uziel says:

    I totally agree with you in the above. (Excuse my bad English Im a Spanish speaker – a sepharadi from the Caribean)

    Yes, I know that Hasem is everything, but I dont belive in pantheism. Hashem is our only King but He rule trough Messiah as His representant. See, Hasem is incorporial and to deal with the matterial world he uses messengers angelical’s and humans. Thats my point.

    The thing is that we shoud put our statements clear so people dong get confused.

    • HaShem works through angels, humans, … and “her seed.” This has been a good work through. :) I look forward to other replies from others on this topic as well.

  • Israel i understand exactly what you are saying here.John 1:1 has been misunderstood by Trinitarians…They and not so long ago me:believed that John 1:1 was stating that the Word is Yeshua and Yeshua was with G-d in/from the beginning…Meaning that he was an infinite self existing Spirit like G-d,and that he is/was co-equal and is/was co-eternal as G-d and the Holy Spirit…As far as John 1:14 the misunderstanding continued on…The Word that was made flesh:was believed to mean that The Son of G-d [G-d the Son] became flesh or a human being…This is why Trinitarians have had such a hard time convincing others that they,and before we,do not believe in three gods:But in the one and only true G-d,but that the one G-d is three divine persons distinct but in unity…So then you know that the misunderstanding of 1 John 1:1,2 encourage more of the same.Israel i do not believe that this was with malice or ill intent…Just misinterpretation encouraged no doubt by the Compromise of Rome with Arius’and his second god theory.

    The scriptures for us Old Testament and New:never ever gave to us this to say or believe…Just like you say that the Torah does not give you to say…It is also clear that the Apostles knew nothing of this so called Trinity.So it is not possible that Trinitarianism was in any way taught by them…

    What a hinderance and even a greater stumbling block to put before the Jews…They will never hear the Gospel preached by a trinitarian,he would be preaching idolatry to them.

    Thank you Israel…

    Ps.i must tell you now that my first question to you concerning Daniel 9:27 was a legitimate request:The question that i ask concerning wether or not the Torah teaches the “economy,Modalism” was also a legitimate question,not because i was interested in reading it:I was Curious that’s all…However,the well being of the the Jews do matter to me…Concerning Daniel 9:27 this matters because there is such a thing called Premillennial dispensationalism,it is end times eschatology, that speaks of a future anti-christ making and breaking and breaking a treaty of some kind with the State of Israel.This is based on Daniel 9 with the main focus being on verse 27.For those who claim to love Israel [the state] stand for Israel and blindly support the State in all that she does as a Nation.I just wonder if this “love” is real or is based on what their end time scenario has in store for the State of Israel…

    So Israel i must tell you that i am a regular blogger on the site http://thechurchofjesuschrist.wordpress.com.So i have not said these things in secret,but openly…and that on this site is where i first saw your name and read your comments on Sunday.

    I am here on my on accord,the writer of this blog has nothing to do with my being here.Only that i read his post and was very intrigued by your conversation with him:that he does know.I also asked him if you the Rabbi and Joel knew what he believed…

    Israel he [Polycarp]is the reason that i am no longer a Trinitarian.He explained the scriptures to me and stuck with me until i understood that trinitarianism is a man-made or “church” developed doctrine that was forced upon the scriptures…

    http://thechurchofjesuschrist.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/unus-deus-where-we-are/

    Please feel free to delete the above and my comments if i have in any way crossed the line with you:

    Again that you Israel

  • viola rogers says:

    Okay, this is way out of my league here. But I do know, HaShem and Yeshua are united. One. Just as we are to be united. No trinity, thank you very much.
    Viola

  • Hi Israel

    Is the above statement meant for me? I thought that you understood that i no longer believe in the trinity? Or that G-d and Yeshua are separate beings.Yeshua was not a free agent,the words his spoke were the words of G-d.

    What i was explaining in my comment was what i believed to be true BEFORE i started talking with Polycarp…Though it has only been less than three weeks and i do have difficulty explaining it…I know that John 1:1 does not speak of the Father and Son but of G-d and his Word and that John 1:14 speaks of G-d’s Word being made flesh…Not that there is two HaShems.No No this is not what i believe at all.The Apostles never taught that G-d is a trinity.That is why i said Old Testament or New,i was NOT given to us to say or to believe in the Trinity or that Yeshua is G-d in the way that trinitarians say it.Please read my comments again.

    Thanks Israel

  • Ps.In case the comment was meant for me.Three weeks ago i would have thought that the trinitarian way would have been the correct way to explain or tell you what i thought of Genesis 19:24…

    I would think that since the Word is eternal as G-d is eternal[not the Son]then G-d rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gommorah by his spoken word [the word or breath of his mouth]so to speak.

    However,now i do not know how to think of or explain it worrying that i still in somethings speak as though i was still a Trinitarian.The lines are dangerous Israel,and i do not wish to cross over them BACK into Idolatry…If you wish please tell me what you say of this passage…

  • Sorry Israel i will not write another comment today,but:i have to be sure that i was clear on what i said before.

    I would think [Today] that the way to explain Genesis 19:24,would be to say that,G-d is eternal,so his Word is eternal.Yeshua the Son of G-d is not eternal. There was a point in time,in history,that he was born.So this passage would me to me [Today] that G-d rained down fire and brimstone by his Word,the pre-existed the incarnation.Believe me Israel,it is easier when i speak with Polycarp.He does not hesitate to correct me.because he is the one that is teaching me.Though i do check everything by the scriptures to make sure that they line up.We must always do this.Since i do not ever want to offend anyone here.Please understand that i am still learning.

    I must admit now i am curious as to what Polycarp would say about this passage too and do wonder if both your answers will be the same.So i will ask him as well.

    take care Israel.

  • Why do we insist on making things of He Shem so hard when they are really quite simple? I have taught this concept to children. Maybe it will help here LOL :)

    G-d is like H2O:
    G-d is like H2O in the from of water. Its huge and powerful, it’s what makes every thing live and is apart of what we are made of (in His image)And it can burn you or cool you depending on its temperature. Like G-d refines us in the fire or cools us with His comfort.

    The Holt Spirit is like H2O in the form of vapor. It can burn you or cool you and it can become a part of you without you even seeing it. Think of it as the breath of life!

    Yeshua is like H2O in the form of Ice. It is hard and has substance that you can touch and see easily. It can also burn you or cool you. Ice can melt into water and be frozen into ice again, just like Yeshua died and came back to life again.

    Water, Vapor and Ice are all different forms but they are all H2O. They are Echad/One.

    G-d, Holy Spirit,and Yeshua are all different forms but they all are HeShem. They are Ehcad/One.

    KJV. 1st John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

    • Well, as with most things around here, and especially concerning the nature of HaShem, we find it better to stick to scripture, for the sake of all those who know the Torah. Analogies beyond what scripture gives us, only seek to present a picture of HaShem that is just as overly simplistic as saying “Yeshua is G-d.”

  • Kurt Anders Richardson says:

    Since there are no respondents on the Trinitarian question, I’ll paste my response here as well.

    I’m following both this and the Messiah as G-d question very sensitively and sympathetically. I am a strict monotheist as a Christian theologian, and trinitarian in the Johannine sense of the “I am” sayings of Jesus, his identity as the Logos of Gn 1 with G-d, is G-d, the eternal relationality between Himself and the Father he declares in his prayer of Jn 17. Rom 8 also presents the identity of the Spirit as G-d who knows the mind of G-d. These relations are real and not fictional. There have been many ways that the traditions avoid tri-theism, including Jewish theologies of divine fullness where key attributes almost begin to take on hypostatized qualities. On the incarnational side, the Elijah narrative indicates a degree of identitification with G-d already that anticipates the unique nature of Jesus as laid out in John’s narratives of Jesus – his own declarations of eternal relation with the Father, and the teachings of Paul. Like you, I will not go beyond scripture.

    Yours,
    Kurt

  • Israel, I will say this in my defense; There was a reason why Yeshua used parables to teach. If you can’t teach Torah directly (because of ignorance or stubborn refusal to see the truth from your listeners) you use parables,and that is what I provided.

    But if you insist on Torah, I will share the Torah path I know – please keep in mind that my Mikvah was just last May and I’m used to doing theology from the New Testament.

    So,let’s make this simple,(for my sake this time lol) Let’s play connect the dots…

    Dot one= A proof or G-d’s Plural nature:

    Genesis 1:26 “And G-d said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”
    Notice that this is in the Plural form. This was written in Plural form in the Hebrew so it has nothing to do with KJV/ British royalty status issue.

    Dot 1 Yeshua as the “actual” Creator:

    Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of G-d moved upon the face of the waters.
    3And G-d said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    Notice that this passage speaks not only of G-d but He Spoke.

    Dot 2= Now, the fact that G-d used words to create is significant. The Word of G-d is G-d in physical motion. Physical things happen when the Word of G-d is active.

    Notice that every act of creation occurred when G-d spoke. He could of waved his hand or blinked an eye but so a witness could be made as to what was to come- he Spoke (used the Word of G-d to create.)

    Dot 3= Let’s jump over a little to a very familiar passage (a season we are coming into Pesach/ Passover)

    Exodus 12:7And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

    Exodus 12:13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

    14And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

    Notice where (the spotless) Lamb’s blood was to be placed – on a door post.

    Dot 4= The door post is mentioned in the very next book…

    Deuteronomy 11:18-21 “18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
    19And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

    20And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house”

    The Word of G-d was to be placed in the same place that the blood of the Lamb was placed. That was no accident! All these things are to be Remembered because they are a reminder of what happened and a foreshadowing of what was to come.

    There are many other prophesies of Yeshua but for time and space sake I’ll shorten it to just this
    He was born in the only town that sheep could be birth for sacrifice unto the Lord- he was birthed right in the pens with the other sheep- literally in Bethelhem.

    He was our Passover Lamb – spotless and sacrificed he is the Word of G-d in the Physical Action of redeeming us.

    When G-d sees the blood of the Lamb of G-d on us,(Yeshua’s blood) the death angel will pass over us and we will be united the G-d!

    I know this is New Testament but it says it best:

    John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d. 2He was with G-d in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.”

    1st John 1:1 “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

    2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our joy complete.”

    How did I do this time? :)

  • Ah very nice indeed.

    IT only helps to solidify for me that Yeshua was not born on December 25th [Pagan Christmas].Nor was he crucified on good Friday [Catholic pagan]…He did not spend part of two days or a half of one or something like that in the heart of the Earth…

    He spent three consecutive Sabbaths in the heart of the Earth.Passover,unleaven bread and the seventh day Sabbath of rest…He was raised on the day of firstfruits… Not [Easter pagan day]…Evening to the morning is considered a day…So it is written in Genesis,in the six days of creation…

    Now surely someone here knows that Daniel 9:27 speaks of the Messiah Yeshua who confirmed the New Covenant with Believing Israel right? Perhaps that there is but One olive tree also,to which Gentiles like myself were grafted into the New Covenant with believing Israel…

    So there is no dichotomy between the church and believing Israel,because they are one and the same body…For if the house is divided against itself,it will not stand,but will come to ruin…

    So then Yeshua’s words…The gates of hell shall not prevail against his church,are useless if we are divided one from another…There were only devout Jews from all over the world at Pentecost,no gentiles are mentioned,perhaps their were some there i do not know…So if some want to believe that the church began at Penetecost good.

    For it started and shall be delivered up whole.With its Jewish roots STILL supporting all of the branches,especially the wild branches…I am a wild branch and i know the truth…So then lets stop wasting time and get on with the great commission… Lets find away to stop this Christian Zionism…They mean Israel no good…So for the sake of the well being of the souls of all people…[however i admit my passion is for all people,but one people in particular]…Please,i do not need a lecture on holding partiality…That’s just the way it is for me…Correction will come to me from him who matters…

    I love your blog Israel!

    • Thanks. It’s not a blog tho. These articles are simply a part of the Messianic Apologetics Project, which I manage. The rest of the site, and the Beit Din, and the mailing list, and pretty much everything else, is everyone else’s. It’s the community’s. If you have an article you’d like to post for consideration or collaboration on the project, send it my way, or send it to the JC mailing list for feedback from the greater MJ community. I’m just the more public voice of the whole site since I’m the one with the most time. ;)

  • Ok Israel and thank you…I would like to ask what do you think of this article…

    Maybe you have seen it already? I do not have to tell you which part of it made me happy…I remember wanting to be apart of something like this,when my former church was sending missionaries and taking trips to Israel…I even bought Simon and Schuster’s Pimsleur,conversational modern Hebrew cds…I am so thankful now, that i never got the chance to go,knowing what i know today about Trinitarianism, and what has always troubled me about dispensationalism…Though i must say in all fairness,that my former church never ever took it to this extreme…

    Have a great weekend Israel.

    http://thechurchofjesuschrist.wordpress.com/2009/03/07/christian-zionists-called-to-take-stand-on-jewish-evangelism/

  • talmidtorah says:

    First of all this is being looked at with the wrong viewpoint. We need to think about what was said from the Hebraic perspective, and not in the traditional linear Western (hellenistic) perspective. Israel isn’t saying that Yeshua was just a man, but at the same time he wasnt saying anything that Torah hasnt given him permission to say. We need to be careful in saying anything without the framework of what Torah permits us to say, to do so encroaches on dangerous ground.

    In response to the saying that Moshe wrote Torah not Hashem, look how many times Torah says Hashem worded to Moshe saying… If Hashem isnt the author we have serious problems with saying any of scripture was from the Devar of Hashem. If that is the case, be real and walk away from all of scripture.

    You cant say what you arent given permission to say. In that I agree with Israel Scripture does say You have no king redemer or savior but Hashem. Then Torah says Messiah is the savior and redeemer and king of Israel. Both statements are true and complete on their own. To try to make the leap to Yeshua the messiah is Hashem is making a leap of greek thought. The Torah doesnt say Yeshua is Hashem and it doesnt need to say it. He is the Memra of Hashem but that doesnt make him the totality of what Hashem is, I believe that is what Israel is saying. In Hebrew thought you can be part of something without being the totality of the thing that you are a part of. Much like the individual Jew is a part of Israel but not the totality of Israel. To say Yeshua is Hashem is saying in effect that He is all there is of Hashem and that is idolotry. Thank you for your time.

    Shalom

  • Uziel Omar says:

    Todah Rabah Javer!

    I agree with what ‘talmidtorah’ says. I dont mind to be rude but, there has never been the believe in judaism of 2 Hashem’s. Are we jewish or christians with talit and kipah? (Im including me to be polite)When it says that Mashiach is the firstborn of creation is telling that it was ‘born.’ The following is an extraction of talmid Aharon. Please note representation is not the same as being the same.

    Soncino Zohar, Bereshith, Section 1, Page 197a
    “Observe that G-d has made the earthly kingdom after the pattern of the heavenly kingdom, and whatever is done on earth has been preceded by its prototype in heaven.”

    As the Torah was always in Heaven before it was given at Sinai, so was Moshiach before he became flesh and dwelt among us. Moshiach is a representation of the Torah, and a representation of HaShem in the flesh. He has come to be a ladder(seen by Yaakov, B’resheet/Genesis 28) to us to reach haShamayim:

    Yochanan 1:49-51
    “Natan’el said, ‘Rabbi, you are the Son of Elokim! You are the King of Israel!’, Yeshua answered him, ‘you believe all this just because I told you I saw you under the fig tree? You will see greater things than that!” Then he said to him, ‘Yes indeed, I tell you that you will see Heaven open up and the angels of G-d going up and and coming down on the Son of Adam!”

    Yeshua is the middle of branch of the Menorah, the middle pillar, the center of the Tree of Life, the heart of the Elohim, a representation of HaShem and the Torah – the one who balances the opposing judgment and mercy aspects of Elohim. He is the unique and only Son of Yah:

    Zohar, vol. 2, p. 115, (Amsterdam Edition)
    “Better is a neighbor that is near, than a brother far off. This neighbor is the Middle Pillar in the G-dhead (Elohim), which is the Son of Yah.”

    Yochanan 1:14
    “The Word became flesh and lived among us,
    and we saw his Shekinah.
    The Shekinah of the Father’s only Son,
    full of grace and truth.”

    About the Torah written by Moshe, what I intended to prove is that when is says, ‘Hashem spoke’ its not Hashem saying ‘Hashem spoke’ like there where two Hashem’s. As you say the Torah says ‘Hashem worded to Moshe’ and -Moshe wrote what Hashem worded.- But when it says “Hashem said: Hashem will be with you…” its not speaking of two Hashem’s. Its the work of Moshe’s point of view. The Torah IS Davar Hashem!!!!!!!

  • Hi Israel

    I have a question concerning the Torah…

    I not able to read in any other “language” except English…So i wanted to know if the Torah and perhaps the prophets are translated from the original Hebrew to English.I do not mean like the Old Testament king James version,which is incomparable to the Torah,which is sacred…I am speaking specifically about what you read…Is it possible to have this in English?

    Thanks Israel

  • Hi again Israel,i just read Uziel omar’s comment…Since it is seems that he is also quoting what is written in the New testament,where do i purchase this? Is he reading from the same book[s]as you?

  • Thank you Israel…The Jewish orthodox bible is what i am looking for…And if i may thank you Uziel for you timely comment as well.

  • Hi Israel

    I promise not to make this a habit…I am attempting a study of Shem the father of all the children of Heber/Eber,the brother of Japeth… Genesis 10:21.I wanted to ask wether or not there is meant to be a connection between Jews and Gentiles becoming one body,the church of Yeshua…And if Abraham is the connection,since he was the first to be called a/the Hebrew and that all nations would be blessed through his seed…I have many commentaries and study material,tho now i question the sources and references due to Trinitarianism and replacement theology…

    Ps. depending on where you are,if time of the Sabbath approaches for you.Then please answer,if you will,when the time is appropriate…

  • Uziel Omar says:

    Please dont give me the credit of the comentary above. I forgot to put that it was taken from a post of a friend the ashekenasi netzari talmid Aharon.

  • Israel i would like to explain to Uziel what i meant…

    I have the king James bible,but i wanted to study/read what Israel and all of you read.So it was by your comment,that i knew what you all read was written in English [so to speak].I cannot read the Hebrew writing…So i ordered a copy the Jewish Orthodox bible,so that i can have it on my computer and at hand anytime i want to read..

  • Uziel Omar says:

    Shalom Chaverim!

    I think Im out af all the discussions.

    Berakhot!

  • I don’t understand what how anyone can say that Yeshua is not G-d.
    Yeshua has said in John 14:9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”

    You want a Old Testament look?

    Try Psalm 110:1 The LORD says to my Lord:
    “Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet.”

    Now, if you think that this is the only place these words are written in the Word and you consider All of the Bible. G-d inspired let’s look at these places and see they quoted this Psalm and the reasons why they are to used….

    Matt 41:42 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42″What do you think about the Christ[d]? Whose son is he?”
    “The son of David,” they replied.

    Matt:41:43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
    44” ‘The Lord said to my Lord:
    “Sit at my right hand
    until I put your enemies
    under your feet.” ‘ 45If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

    Mark 12:28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

    29″The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our G-d, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these.”

    32″Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that G-d is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

    34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of G-d.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
    Whose Son Is the Christ
    35While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:
    ” ‘The Lord said to my Lord:
    “Sit at my right hand
    until I put your enemies
    under your feet.” ‘ 37David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”
    The large crowd listened to him with delight.

    Luke 20:40 And no one dared to ask him any more questions.
    Whose Son Is the Christ?
    41Then Jesus said to them, “How is it that they say the Christ[a]is the Son of David? 42David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:
    ” ‘The Lord said to my Lord:
    “Sit at my right hand
    43until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet.”

    Acts 2: 29″Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that G-d had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[f] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32G-d has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of G-d, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
    ” ‘The Lord said to my Lord:
    “Sit at my right hand
    35until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet.”

    36″Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: G-d has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

    Yeshua did not have a human father like other males either- did we just skip the whole virgin birth thing?

    Matt.1:18 This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit.

    Here it is from the Old Testament KJV Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself will give you [a] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [b] will call him Immanuel.”

  • As I challenge anyone, find the answer in the Torah. The prophets could not add to Torah, nor can Messiah and his disciples. This means that everything we think they meant to teach and explain, must be found in the Torah, or else our understanding of what they taught and explained is not true (since I don’t hold them to be false teachers).

  • Harry Case says:

    What do you do with the scripture that says of Yeshua, “…for in Him dwells all the fullness of the G-dhead, bodily.”?

    • Harry,

      I ask, “where is that found in the Torah?” To which I find that it’s referring to how G-d himself dwells in the Tabernacle, but does not fully contain him.

  • I have a word for you, Harry, that might help…try “Melchizedek” :)